Document Accessibility Unraveled
Chad Chelius and Dax Castro during an Accessibility Podcast with the Chax Chat Logo between them.

Guest Charissa Ramirez, Accessible PDF vs. HTML, and accessibility advice

Dax Castro
Welcome to another episode of Chax Chat. Join Chad Chelius and me Dax Castro, where each week we wax poetic about document accessibility topics, tips, and the struggle of remediation and compliance. So sit back, grab your favorite mug of whatever, and let’s get started.

Chad Chelius
Welcome, everyone. This week sponsor is CommonLook. Since 1999, CommonLook has been the world’s leading provider of professional PDF accessibility software and services. They guarantee standards compliance using their hybrid approach, testing, assessment, remediation, training and support. So we thank them for being our sponsor. My name is Chad Chelius. I’m a trainer, author, consultant, Adobe-Certified Instructor, as well as an accessible document specialist.

Dax Castro
And my name is Dax Castro. I’m an Adobe-Certified PDF Accessibility Trainer as well as certified as an accessible document specialist by the International Association of Accessibility Professionals. And today on episode 12, right? We’re Episode 12. Chad? We are 12. (12) Today on episode 12, we have Charessa Ramirez, who happens to be the Policy Officer at the New South Wales Department of Customer Service for Greater Sydney. And we are so happy to have her because we want to ask some information about her journey into accessibility. So Charissa a policy officer working on digital accessibility at the Department of customer service. And her background is as an industrial designer, and she’s been working on packaging and graphic design for the first 20 years of her life. But I don’t want you to hear from me, Teresa, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for being here.

Charissa Ramirez
Thanks, Dax. Thanks, Chad, for inviting me to this podcast. I’m so happy to join you. Awesome.

Dax Castro
Yeah. Well, can you tell us a little bit about your journey? How did you get to become to get involved with accessibility?

Charissa Ramirez
Well, for the first two decades of my professional life, I was an industrial designer working in packaging and graphic design. And then my family moved on to Australia from the Philippines. And when I worked with the New South Wales Government, I have to work on making documents accessible. And I know how to work on making InDesign and PDF document. Work for print and publish it. But not to make it accessible. I don’t even know what accessibility means at that point.

Charissa Ramirez
So when Vision Australia and ask them if I can have a mentorship, and they welcome me, the digital access team welcomed me with open arms. And from there, I started my journey on digital accessibility. And from that point on, that was 2013, people who know me when I start talking about accessibility, I’ve never stopped talking about it. I’d just tell them what they needed to know. So yeah, here I am, and still advocating for digital accessibility in during my work hours and even after work hours.

Dax Castro
Well, you know, it’s funny, because you and I were talking, I think it was six o’clock your time and 1am my time and we were of course talking about accessibility. And, you know, I feel the same way you know. My journey is similar to yours in that I knew a lot about InDesign, not a lot about accessibility. I was tagged with the, with the task of learning about it. And once I say “Once you drink the Kool Aid, it’s so hard to get that taste out of your mouth.” It is so great. And I love accessibility. And it’s really you know, Chad and I were talking on a previous episode, right Chad about we would hav never thought that our journeys would have taken us where we are today, but I could never think of doing anything different right Chad?

Chad Chelius
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I’m, I’m gonna wait to share my story, my journey into accessibility. But, um, you know, when I think back to, you know, where it began, and, and even where accessibility was, say 15 years ago, not only was it a personal journey, but but I’ve seen the industry grow. Right? I’ve seen just, you know, the awareness. I’ve seen the the capabilities grow, and it’s just been a fantastic journey. And, I think a lot of us share the same story. You know, Charissa, Dax, you know, myself, we all kind of have very similar stories as far as how we, you know, have come along in this journey.

Dax Castro
Yeah, I you know, and I think what’s interesting is that, you know, sometimes people look at us and they go, Oh, I could never know someone said the other day “Dax has forgotten more than I’ll ever know.” The bottom line is, I am learning every single day – Always learning something new and curious, uh, you can probably attest to the same fact that we we never stop learning, right?

Charissa Ramirez
I do. And even if I have, like, listen to a lot of podcasts and conferences and webinars, I still learn a lot from hearing from other people. And I asked a lot of questions. I’m always curious, I listen to people. And I, that, that gives me that broad, look at all the different experiences of people. Because for me, I cannot speak for for other’s experiences. So I really have to be an observer, curious person.

Dax Castro
So the other day I was I was reading this article, I think it was by Steven Faulkner on Twitter, that was talking about unconscious bias for disability. And it was talking about, as we’re mediators, or document creators, we sometimes just automatically assume that a person with a disability is going to read a document the same way I would, or that I’m creating this structure. This is a lot like a UI UX, when people develop a program, they they may think, think that, oh, they’re gonna walk through it this way. And it’s gonna go from A to B to C to D and on down the line.

Dax Castro
But oftentimes, we you know, when you actually put it into practice, and someone, you give that document to someone, and they start digesting the document, using a screen meter, they might do some, you know, pull up the “list of lists”, or pull up the how many links are in the document, or they just want to know a certain thing, and they may search. And I’ve been blown away a couple of times where I’ve given a document to someone using a screen reader. And they immediately jumped to something I had no idea that was of interest in a way that I was unfamiliar with. So, you know, it’s that poor principles. perceivable, operable, understandable, and the last one is robust, right. That’s why we work so hard to make sure that there are multiple ways to digest a document. Sure. So for for the people that might not be familiar with the accessibility rules and laws in Australia. Can you give us a little bit of kind of the accessibility journey? And mandates in Australia that are that are currently applicable?

Charissa Ramirez
Well, back in 2014, all Australian government agencies have to make sure that their websites, including the documents, and of course, PDFs have to meet WCAG 2.0, AA. Back then it was still 2.0. 2.1 wasn’t a thing, back then, so that was 2.0. And the mandate for Australian government agencies was to prepare HTML first. So we are HTML first focused when it comes to information. We wanted it to be in HTML format, instead of PDFs. There are use cases where PDF is possible to be published online. And we want to make sure that teams who have to publish PDFs online, they have to make sure it is accessible. So first, it has to be HTML format. And if it’s not possible to be published as HTML format, then they have to make sure if they’re publishing an alternative format, like PDF, then it has to have at least an HTML summary. (okay) And has to be accessible.

Dax Castro
Ah, so you so if you were hosting online, and they created an HTML kind of introductory page that gives you a summary, let’s say 100 or 50, page environmental, for whatever reason, and so you would give a summary in HTML and then then provide a link to the accessible PDF, is that correct?

Charissa Ramirez
That’s correct. Because we wanted to make sure that user experience is that (uh huh) don’t want people to go through the 150 page document if they’re only after this particular insight. And then that’s why you have a summary (oh that’s…) of the page, then you just make sure it’s HTML.

Dax Castro
Right. So talk about the workflow there because I think a lot of people are interested in the… I mean, I’ve heard and the the opinion that, you know, of course, not everybody is an HTML expert. And a lot of times there’s a lot of red tape in between the content creator and the HTML publisher, maybe it’s a single person in it or maybe it’s, you know, a several day backlog. How has your experience been with getting that information from the document to the HTML format been.

Charissa Ramirez
Well, of course, when you start with a document, you start with a document program, mostly Word. So this was file could be Word or for report, it can be InDesign. But when you have to publish it, you go through a digital channels team of the organization or a web team (uh huh) who publish it for you. So our authors, the creators of the document, don’t publish that themselves, they have to submit that to the team will publish it, and they are encouraged to create a HTML version of it. Or if they’re giving the team a PDF, then the PDF has to be accessible.

Dax Castro
Awesome. You know, I think that a lot of people are worried about the, the, you know, everything is immediate, right? We’ve got this deadline that the PDF has the document, at least in the, in the US, we have a lot of state agencies that have deadlines to post certain documents, right? So they say, “Okay, it’s got to be posted by the 15th.” Usually, we’re not getting that PDF until the, you know, the morning of the 15th to get it out on the web. And so it’s, I think a lot of it is timeline. Do you find that as your that you have to be more aware of that schedule when you’re when you have that HTML step to go through? Or is it really just look, we’re designing everything in word or? Or InDesign and of course, InDesign has… Chad, refresh my memory In5 [Ajar Productions], right? That’s the plugin that goes from InDesign to HTML. Is that correct?

Chad Chelius
That is correct. InDesign to HTML5.

Dax Castro
Yeah, right. And so so i is it that you’re just making sure that the source Charissa…Is it that you’re just making sure that the source is an easily convertible, meth format to HTML?

Charissa Ramirez
Well, they, our publishers for the internet can use your Word document. But of course, you don’t just necessarily copy and paste it, sometimes you make sure it’s also logical. So (right) we have content designer. So make sure the flow also fits. The way people read on the internet. It’s different from the way people read a print document. (True) So then you have to really understand the way that people would consume that information.

Charissa Ramirez
So the use case scenario is something that you have to investigate and the moment you plan to create a document or a report, you don’t do the end and decide, “Oh, I think we need to make these others word or PDF.”

Chad Chelius
Preach it sister.

Dax Castro
Accessibility at the end is not a thing. For anybody listening, you know, all all project managers think, oh, there’s this this magic button, you can press at the end and make it accessible right before it goes to the web. And

Charissa Ramirez
Have you encountered something like this, when you have to make you’re about to publish something, or you’re reviewing a PDF that’s already been done and made. And you first check it for color contrast. By that time, you have to review it before publication, (right) color is too late to change. It’s everywhere in your charts in the whole document. So that’s why you have to think about accessibility from the start and not at the end.

Chad Chelius
I’m pretty sure our listeners have heard me say this. And I say it at the very least I say it once in every training that I do. And that is if you take anything from my class, or what I say it’s that

Chad Chelius – You’ve you’ve got to think about accessibility at the beginning and not at the end. Because by the time you’re at the end, it’s the hard way, the expensive way, the time consuming way. And and oftentimes to your point your essay, it’s too late. Like if the color contrast is not sufficient in a PDF that’s already been created. I can’t really fix that in the PDF file.

Chad Chelius
I mean, some people would argue that with me, it’s possible. It’s not fun. It’s in no way fun, you know, so, yeah, like, by the time you’re at that point, it’s just too late. And, you know, that’s why, you know, and that’s why it’s important, right, as part of what we do, right. Oftentimes, part of my role in helping companies implement an excessive an accessibility plan is, is getting approval from the higher ups and convincing them that this is needed. And it’s important, right? And, and that’s one of the big challenges that we face, you know, in a lot of cases, but at the very, very least, you know, you’ve got to think about accessibility at the beginning and not the end.

Dax Castro
You know, I find that it’s interesting in a lot of the reports and things And I’ve been involved in some, you know, 800 page reports. And when someone hands it to me and says, Hey, Dax, can you check this for accessibility? And all of a sudden, the the color scheme that they chose is, you know, one of the colors isn’t accessible because everywhere they’ve used it, there’s not enough color contrast, right? And so you go back at the end, and you’re like, Well, no, wait, that the answer is almost invariably. (yeah) We can’t change that. (yeah). So and so’s already seen it, the president of whatever has already seen this, and you’re like, Okay, but just because they’ve already seen it doesn’t make it any less, or any more accessible. I mean, it’s still got to get changed.

Chad Chelius
Yeah, I want to share something with you. I was doing training for a company, and we’re talking about accessibility and the topic of color contrast came up. And they handed me they literally had just gone through this huge rebranding process. And they handed me that they didn’t hand it to me, they sent me the file of all of their new logos. And I checked the color contrast, and it was not sufficient.

Chad Chelius
Now, I know, the other aspect of that, right, is that logos are exempt from color contrast requirements. But but it just, it was very poignant, you know, what I mean? Like, you know, it was obvious that, you know, whoever, whatever agency they used, that was not a variable that they were considering, you know, as part of the rebranding so…

Dax Castro
Well, you know, what’s funny is that I find, you know… we talk about now that we’re in the accessibility world, right, we see the world through accessibility eyes. (yeah). And I can’t look at something and not check for contrast look for, you know, starting applying all the CAG rules. But what I find is, is that a lot of the… I’ve looked at, like, usually, it’s a pink logo, or a light blue logo or a yellow logo, and I’m like, it’s unreadable. It’s just…

Dax Castro
I post, you know, I posted something on LinkedIn the other day, about my wife got tickets to an event, and the area where it showed what seat what row, and what section we were in, was literally pure yellow, the text was white on a yellow background, there was I literally had to take a picture a screenshot of it and zoom in to see it.

Screenshot of event ticket with yellow background and illegible white text.
Screenshot of event ticket with yellow background and illegible white text.

Dax Castro
So I feel like even though logos are exempt from color contrast requirements, it benefits you to make your logo more visible. Right, right. I mean, to not have red green, colorblind barriers, right. Charissa. You know, you and I were talking offline before and you were mentioning, mentioning an empathy lab. Can you tell us more about that?

Charissa Ramirez
I was about to mention that, you know, when we start talking about WCAG rules and the contract requirements and quote the numbers that are required to meet this contrast ratio. It still doesn’t make sense to people if they’re just hearing the number. like, “What’s the contract requirement, 4.5 to 1?” It really doesn’t make sense until they see what the difference is it makes. So we show them the difference of color contrast, when… for example, we show we use some tools in the empathy lab, we take people along the journey and get them have an experience of it, we show the different versions of a map, for example, and run them through what it looks like for a person with a color vision impairment.

Charissa Ramirez
And they can see grades, what is your red and the gray background in a map? And when you want to say okay, the red ones are this and the gray ones are, you can go there and then change it to a different color for a person with only gray vision. They don’t know which one is which, and change it to other color vision like the red and green blindness colorblind. And then then they can see all practically they can see that because once the differences once you don’t have a step in into that experience, you won’t really see the benefit of changing something. But (right) they step through a journey and then then that makes sense.

Dax Castro
Well, we call that “Understanding the Why” right? When you can understand the why you’re doing what you’re doing. It makes it much you take a little bit of pride, I think in you know, making this document accessible. If you’re in the accessibility world, I’m sure you’ve heard this statistic that on average, between eight and 10% of males are colorblind. Right now, females, it’s point 2%. Very low has to do with the rods and cones in your eyes. But if I told you that you’re designing a document that 10% of your audience isn’t going to be able to see that’s a big percentage. Right.

Dax Castro
And, so I feel like once people start to get connected to the why, I mean, I think that’s why I love usability testing so much, because for me, the rules help us get there. Right? They’re they’re the standard that sets the groundwork. But it’s really about the usable experience and how… it’s for me, it’s it’s almost I almost gamify it. How usable can I make this document? How close to the visual experience can I make it? And I have a sense of pride when I create that document. And I know that someone using a screen reader is going to go, “Wow, someone took some extra time on this document.”

Chad Chelius
Yeah. I love that idea of the empathy lab. You know, I mean, I think we need empathy labs for other things, too, right? Like, like, what it’s like to be a construction worker on the side of the road with cars whizzing by, you know, in the Oh, yeah. You know, what I mean? I feel like we can have empathy labs for so many different things, you know, but from, from an accessibility standpoint, I think it’s a great idea, because that’s you and I talked about this in previous podcast where, you know, sometimes remediators will kind of get sucked into the green check boxes, you know, and just kind of like ticking off the checkboxes were, to your point, understanding “The Why” is is such a big factor in what we do. Right. And and it just makes us better at our jobs. So Charissa, how about mentioned the article about ramps?

Dax Castro
You posted something on LinkedIn the other day about at-level transfers for for public transportation?

Charissa Ramirez
Oh, of course, yes. Because I was talking about level access on a train journey, where I appreciate having a level access where people can walk from the platform into a train without needing the ramps, and making sure that it’s all level. Well, for most of the trains that we have seen, [the] train staff have the roll out around for people using wheelchairs. And (right) once you change the experience into level access, then then you also benefit not only people who are using wheelchairs, but people who are have problems with balance and coordination. People carrying boxes can’t hold onto something. Young children, they usually fall in between the gaps. So what I meant with that article, with that post, was that accessibility benefits everyone.

Dax Castro
Well, I can tell you that I broke my leg about three years ago. Matter of fact, Creative Pro Week, I rolled on stage in a knee scooter, literally to teach my session. It happened just a few months before creative pro week. And I will tell you, I had to write light rail in every morning. And I had to use those ramps and trying to push that knee scooter up the ramp… Now they have regulations on how steep of an incline you can have. But I will tell you, there were times where I missed the light rail train, because I had to go all the way to the beginning of the train in order to get on that ramp. And they were already gone by the time I got there. And then there was a time where I was no longer using the knee scooter I was you know in transition to be walking. And because the steps were so steep getting into the doorways, I still didn’t have full strength. So I end somebody was usually by the handrail, so I couldn’t grab onto the handrail to get in. It was it was a huge barrier for me, I would have definitely benefited by having a pure level access across the entire platform.

Charissa Ramirez
I think that’s where the definition of disability, the social model of disability comes in. Where the environment around people that makes you this able when environment, technology can enable a lot of people. But when we are not aware of those accessibility principles, then you introduce a barrier when something really simple can be an enabler and make it useful for everyone.

Chad Chelius
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I was just gonna say like I had a similar experience. A few years ago, my my family and I we were fortunate enough to go to Hawaii, and we were on vacation and we decided to go to this beach. And you know, here we are like East coasters in Hawaii. And when I tell you the waves in Hawaii are different than They are on the east coast. It’s like an understatement because long story short, I got pounded by a wave. I did not break my ankle, but I severely sprained it and I ended up. I’m very stubborn and headstrong. And so I refused the cart and I used crutches. And and let me tell you, crutches are tough on (Yes.) Right. Like when you’ve got to do stairs on crutches and, and so I kind of found myself, you know, and this is, you know, way into my accessibility journey, but it was a bit eye opening, right? Because, you know, here I am on crutches, trying to go up and down stairs. And being a, you know, I’m a fairly healthy guy. I was able to do it, but I can imagine there’s plenty of people out there who struggle with that, which, you know, to our point is probably where the whole you know, wheelie cart came from, you know, because being on crutches all day is work. It’s a lot of work. So

Dax Castro
Oh it is, (you know), absolutely. I actually was on a short story. I walked down a flight of stairs while I was on crutches because I had sprained my ankle. I buckled and rolled my other ankle. (Chad laughs) So I literally had to sprained ankles, and because of crutches

Chad Chelius
You were just a comedy of errors, weren’t you pretty much?

Dax Castro
Well, that was high school. So you know… (you were gawky and awkward) Yeah, I was thin back then anyway. Exactly. I was about 200 pounds less than I am. Now. Let me tell you. Well, Chad, we’ve come to that time in our episode and, and Theresa, we do this, this spot called who’s on Twitter. And we focus on a Twitter profile of someone that deals with accessibility that we find interesting.

Dax Castro
And today’s “Who’s on Twitter?” is A11yRules. And they are they tweet about accessibility. They’re an accessibility advocate. And they have a podcast. So that podcast actually is A11yRules.com. And so I was listening to a couple of podcast episodes, and it’s pretty good, right? I mean, we’re not the only accessibility podcast out there for sure. So we have no problem promoting others who are who are furthering the cause of accessibility.

Dax Castro
So this person who runs this podcast is Nick Steenhout. And so his he runs the podcast his his Twitter handle is V A V R O O M. Right. I think that’s varoom. But he he hosts the podcast A11yRules. So we’d like to invite you to go on there and take a look at what he’s got. There’s some some great podcast episodes on his talks. Michael Osman talks about blindness and Aria with live regions, which is more web stuff. Then we’ve got Global Accessibility Awareness Day. He had there’s an interview with Joe Devon, about Global Accessibility Awareness Day, I’m betting and then you know, he’s got several different podcasts on here that I thought that I thought were pretty good. So go ahead and take a listen.

Dax Castro
Alright guys, so we are close to the end. Charisssa, I want to give you the the soapbox, as it were, as we close here, if you had any advice or any wisdom that you’d like to impart on on those people who are in their accessibility journey, what would it be?

Charissa Ramirez
I would say, if you find… if you are new to accessibility, I would like to let you know that you are not alone. And you can reach out and network with other people. There’s so much help around in the community. When I started, I had help from everyone. I asked questions. And I haven’t found anyone in the accessibility community who said no to me. Everyone was so generous with their time. And I think you just find people, ask around and find other champions.

Dax Castro
And how have conferences played into that? I know, of course, we’re in the COVID era right now. So in person conferences has have been a little less frequent. But do you feel like there’s value in attending those accessibility conferences for a networking standpoint?

Unknown Speaker
While l do means meeting people face to face, I actually had the opportunity to attend overseas conferences, my first CSUN [Accessible Technology Conference] . It was one of my bucket list and because of it was held virtually, and I am from Australia and you know, to travel to the United States takes about 20 hours and all the costs involved (right) then yes, I find that is one advantage of I’m joining accessibility webinars in New York or in the UK or in the United States and other countries. Although it’s the other way around in my time, it’s 2am in in Sydney, and they’re like 9am in New York.

Dax Castro
Well, and we know that, that is that it is late for you, and we really appreciate you being on here. You know, Chad, one of the and I think Charissa as well, you know, one of the unintended benefits of this COVID kind of pandemic, has been the ability to, to do online conferences. Right. And Chad, you know, you can talk about this Creative Pro Week, having it be online has afforded us so much more opportunity to to connect and reach out to people who wouldn’t be able to attend the conference.

Chad Chelius
Yeah, I mean, you’re absolutely right. I mean, both Creative Pro, as well as Adobe MAX, have been virtual. And, you know, that to Charissa’s point, you know, the, the barrier for her of the 20 hour flight, and the expense of that flight has always been a challenge, right? And, of course, that’s the case for many people all over the world. And I can tell you, like at Adobe MAX, this year, they had record attendance, like I had…

Dax Castro
460,000 people attended Adobe max. Now the in person, we’ve been going for years, the in person event, usually it’s been when I first started in San Diego, it was about 10,000. And then it was 12,000. And we were up to about 14 or 15,000. Last year, I think that was about where we are. But that is a far cry (oh yeah) from 460,000.

Chad Chelius
I also kind of forced us to push the limits of technology, right? You know, I mean, in the past, we would not have even considered doing a virtual conference. But I think, you know, in, this pandemic, and and again, you know, I mean, you know, we’re going to be, you know, one of the few generations that can say that we’ve lived through a pandemic, right. I mean, the last one was 1914, something like that. And, (yeah, right) you know, so it’s a challenge that none of us expected. But I want to give everyone kudos for… “Okay, let’s figure this out.” You know, I mean? “Let’s figure out how to overcome this this challenging time.” And, and yeah, I mean, the virtual conferences have been famously popular, you know. It’s been great.

Dax Castro
Well, you know, my accessibility session had almost 6,000 people attend. Right, if I were to do an accessibility session at Adobe MAX, in person, I might have 100 people attend. I know, Mark Heaps his session had 25,000 people in his session on Photoshop, which is unreal.

Chad Chelius
Yeah, I know, I know, one of my sessions, I had 17,000 people signed up, you know. (That’s awesome) I am gonna tell you, like, if I had to stand up in front of 17,000 people, a different story. But, you know, being that I was sitting at home, in my house, it was a little more palatable.

Charissa Ramirez
I was just about to say that these are virtual conferences also made these people are becoming more conscious on captioning and making sure that it’s accessible for not only captioning, but making sure it’s accessible for everyone. (that is a great point) Before we are not really aware, when we describe something that is an image. Now you have to make sure that you describe it to everyone, and you make sure caption in there, and you provide other things to make sure everyone is included. So that’s I think it’s a plus.

Dax Castro
You know, (absolutely). I know, we said we were at the end, but but I wanted to, I want to circle back just for a second. Theresa, there’s something in Australia that I think is important that I think people should know. And that when I started attending sessions, presentations from that are Australia-based, one of the first things that people do in their session, is that they think the First Nations Peoples and they identify the area from which they are. And can you tell us a little bit about that? How that kind of I mean, maybe you don’t know how it came to be, but what why that’s important and your perspective on that.

Charissa Ramirez
It’s called the Acknowledgement of Country. It’s a mark of respect to the traditional owners of the land. First Australians.

Dax Castro
That’s great. I spoke at a session online conference for OZeWAI. And I was it was interesting, I had not been exposed to that before. And, and when I saw that, I was like, Wow, that’s really great. That that’s, that’s something they do.

Dax Castro
Well, we are at the end guys. This is Episode 12 In the bag. Charissa, thank you so much for for being here today. And sharing your experiences and giving people some advice and some help and some awareness around some of the things they might not be considering.

Chad Chelius
Well, Charissa, thank you so much for being our guest on today’s podcast. You really provided us with some enlightening and valuable information. So, thank you so much for being here today.

Chad Chelius
And I also want to thank CommonLook. Since 1999, common look has been the world’s leading provider of professional PDF accessibility software and services. They guarantee standards compliance using their hybrid approach- testing, assessment, remediation, training and support. We really appreciate them being our sponsor on today’s podcast. Well, my name is Chad Chelius…

Dax Castro
And I’m Dax Castro. And we are Chax Chat. Thank you so much for joining us on this journey, where we unravel accessibility for you.

Chad Chelius
Thanks, guys.

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