Document Accessibility Unraveled
Chad Chelius and Dax Castro during an Accessibility Podcast with the Chax Chat Logo between them.

Guest Philipp Carlucci and Accessible Tactile Comics

Dax Castro
Welcome to another episode of Chax Chat. Join Chad Chelius and me Dax Castro, where each week we wax poetic about document accessibility topics, tips, and the struggle of remediation and compliance. So sit back, grab your favorite mug of whatever, and let’s get started.

Chad Chelius
Welcome, everyone. today’s podcast is sponsored by AbleDocs, makers of axesWord, axesPDF, as well as document remediation services. So we want to thank them for being our sponsor on today’s podcast. My name is Chad Chelius. I’m a trainer, author, consultant, Adobe-Certified Instructor and accessible documents specialist.

Dax Castro
And my name is Dax Castro and I am an Adobe certified PDF accessibility trainer, and I am certified by the International Association of Accessibility Professionals as an Accessible Document Specialist, Chad, good morning. How are you doing?

Chad Chelius
Good and how are you?

Dax Castro
Not too bad. We have bunny bunny apocalypses been thwarted. We now have all the air conditioning life can throw at my bunny rabbits. And they are are surviving. So we have a it’s been in the high 90s this last week. So alpaca and bunnies and chickens are all doing well. My chickens love frozen watermelon man that is there. It could be a million degrees outside he throws some some frozen watermelon out there and they are just fine.

Chad Chelius
Yeah, well, well, for probably for the first time you and I have had the same weather. It was about 98 degrees. Where I live this past week. And I think the only difference is the humidity was about 98%.

Dax Castro
You know, we took a trip up to Seattle, and the humidity was unbearable. And I know it’s not even close to what it’s probably like where you are. But But yeah, it was it was it was an interesting experience. Well, you know, Chad, I’m really excited today. We’ve got another podcast guest Philipp Carlucci. And I stumbled on to Philipp’s profile, because we were talking about comics. Yeah. assessable comics, right. And, and I was doing some research and like, who can we follow? Who Can we talk to? And Philipp’s name came up. So Philipp, welcome to Chax Chat. Thank you so much for being here.

Philipp Carlucci
Thanks so much for having me.

Dax Castro
I want you to tell our listeners what it is, you know, we’re talking about I mentioned comics, right. And so you have a you embarked on an accessibility a comic that is accessible, I think in a very unique way. Can you tell us a little bit about how you came about to start working on such a project?

Philipp Carlucci
Yeah, it was a bit by accident. To be honest, I ended up in a class at university that was about comic books. And we had this technique at our university where you just to in order to come up with good ideas, you just create like little cards and write ideas on these cards and has come up with as many ideas as possible. And I just wrote down every random idea I had for a comic book. And the problem was that I’m really bad at drawing. And I’m not like, I wasn’t super interested in comics, neither I just ended up in the class. And yeah, one of the ideas that I wrote down on these cards was like to come up with a comic book that just uses simple shapes, because it was so bad at drawing. So I was like, like, just use circles and squares or whatever, sure to tell a story.

Philipp Carlucci
And one of the other ideas I came up with was to do a comic for the blind. And there wasn’t really idea, an idea back then it was just like, it sounded weird. And it just came to my mind. So I just wrote it down. And then in the end of the process, you just combine all these ideas that you have to see if you come up with new ideas. And then I just combined basically this idea to do a comic for blind readers with the idea to tell like a story with a very simple basic graphical shapes. And that’s what the story is basically.

Dax Castro
Awesome. Well, for our listeners, they can go to hello.pm slash life. So that’s http://hallo.pm/life and see an example of what you’re talking about. And I think there’s a really good you know, not to take away from our podcasts but I think that there’s a really good story there. And there are it kind of walks through your the evolution of life right, which is the the title of your comic. Can you tell us how you kind of came about with the story for your comic?

Philipp Carlucci
Yeah, the story. Since I wanted to since I, since I had to use these very simple shapes, like for one of the reasons was because I was so bad at drawing but the other reason was because then I wanted to do this coming for the blind. So I wanted to use very, very simple shapes, that blind readers and people with eyesight could understand and see the same thing. Basically So either you feel a circle, which is like one of the main main thing in the story is this little circle, which represents a human being. So either you see the circle, or you feel the circle, but it’s the same for sighted readers and blind readers. Basically, it’s always just a circle. And the story, yeah, since I didn’t want to, I wanted to do a very simple story, that’s as simple as possible. (sure)

Philipp Carlucci
Because I want it to be understandable by every reader, really. And you can’t do very complex stories with, with, with shapes without using lots of text. So the story had to be so simple, that you just need shapes, and no text at all. No dialogues happened in this comic book, which is usually very common for comic books as well. But I just wanted to have shapes that tell a story. And there’s just not that many stories that came to my mind, then just having this like little story of these two dots, representing two human beings, that getting closer together, they’re having a child. And in the end, they die, unfortunately. But that was just like, the basic story of life. And I wanted to just give the reader the title, which is life, and then this, the comic, basically, and then they should have to do all the integral.

Chad Chelius
I think what’s really interesting. You’re right, like, the the fundamental principle is simple. But it’s actually an extremely complex topic. You know, I mean, I, I don’t know how to explain it, you know, I mean, you’re right. I mean, you’re just like, Oh, it’s just circles. But using this basic shape, you’re explaining a very complex idea, you know, and and I find it fascinating. I mean, it, you know, all for for all of our listeners that you really have to go to http://hallo.pm/life and check out Philipp’s diagram here made it’s, it’s, I think it’s fast, fascinating.

Philipp Carlucci
Yeah, so, like I, I did read a bit destice, this book by Scott McCloud, called Understanding Comics. And it’s a very good book about just comics in general, and how they work. It’s comic book that explains comic books. So that’s very interesting. And the biggest thing in comics is really what’s happening in between the tiles like, and what is happening in your mind, it’s all about what you make of what do you make of it, basically. And the more, the more you boil down the story, or the more you reduce it, the more you give to the reader to do into, like the interpretation of like themselves.

Philipp Carlucci
So if you just have the simple circle, actually, you might identify more with this simple shape, than if it would be like a perfectly drawn human being, you would maybe see that human being and you would think, oh, that’s not me. But if you just see the circle, you can feel like, Oh, yeah, this is me, it’s like me, this could be me. And this could be my wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend or whoever. So the less you see, the more basically you make up in your mind as well.

Dax Castro
I think it’s interesting. It’s about filling… To me when I’m listening to tell that it’s like filling in the gaps, right? Yeah, you’re giving the reader power to fill in the story. But you’re giving them a framework, that’s, that’s very individual, it’s so generic is not the right word. Because it allows you to put your own flavor to it. Like when I was watching, when I was looking at your story, I imagined a white box, and there’s a sole solitary little baby in the middle of the white box. And then I’m watching the baby grow. And then I’m watching it turn into an adult, right. So I have this picture in my head, which is completely different than probably anyone else’s picture of this story. Someone else might think of someone at a park, or, you know, two people interacting in life, or maybe their own story, it can go in so many places. I think it’s such an amazing, an amazing framework. And I really applaud you for for taking on this challenge.

Philipp Carlucci
Thank you so much. I mean, yeah, you’re right, you could interpret the story in whatever way and I actually made this little joke on the website that you shouldn’t move the circles around, I have like a visual version of it. And you can move them around to create your own story if you if you want basically. And another thing that came to my mind while he’s while you were talking is as well, like if So the cool thing about this using circles is you see a circle and a blind reader touches a circle, and you both have the exact same information. It’s just a circle, and all the rest is happening in your mind. So you might visualize a person you might visualize yourself or you might visualize your wife as you see her but a blind reader might visualize the smell or the touch or the feel that it gets from from another person or the voice. And so anybody can focus on what what what a person is to them. Really. (yeah)

So just really as open as possible and everybody feels the story in there way.

Philipp Carlucci

Chad Chelius
Yeah, that’s fascinating. Philipp, how did you come up with the tactile format?

Philipp Carlucci
Yeah, it’s good question. So, yeah, it started all in this in this university class. And then I created this very simple story. And I tried it with like, people with friends basically. And so if they would understand the story, and then then I then I was experimenting with the How could I make this into like a thing that you could explore by touching it. So I was experimenting with just paper and punching holes into paper and touching the paper myself. But it wasn’t really any like, wasn’t really good enough. And I was very fortunate that I could get in touch with like an organization in, in Copenhagen, that was printing tactile books, and was a library as well. So you could as a blind reader, you could rent books, like tactile books there in this library and audio books. And the cool thing is they had a printer available there, that is basically that you could feed visual images to the printer, and then it would print embossed paper.

Chad Chelius
(wow thats great),

Philipp Carlucci
It imprints embossed printer paper, it was this printer, and it was super loud, it was very, very loud, very, very slow. And but you could like you could draw a circle, and then it would print the circle out. So for example, they were using it often for maps, for example. So tactile maps, so you could touch the map then or shapes as well, or whatever.

Dax Castro
You know, Chad, I was at CSUN. And they had a tactile display. It was a company much like what you’re describing Philipp in in that it had a tactile map, you basically fed it a JPEG or a PNG, and it would print a tactile version of it. And based on the density of the color, it would print a different dot pattern. So it felt different. And so one of the examples that it had was cloudy day, and some grass and some other different elements on the page. But what was really cool is they had this flat board that you put the paper on, and when you ran your fingers over the area to touch to feel it, it played audio cues that matched like the field, right, so the rain was you heard rain, and then you heard waters trickling, and you know, in the different areas of the map. So it was not only a tactile experience, but an auditory experience as well, which was really interesting. And then of course, they had tactile maps for campuses and things. But I did see a printer very much like the one you’re talking about, where you feed it an image, and it actually prints a raised. It’s it’s not Braille, but it’s a raised representation of whatever you draw. So that’s really cool.

Chad Chelius
Yeah, no, you Philipp as much as you want to say you’re not, you know, you can’t draw, you’re definitely an artist. I mean, you know, looking at your website and looking at what you’ve done. I mean, you’re, you know, you’ve got immense creativity. So I commend you, on on what you’ve done. It’s fantastic. Thank you. So,

Dax Castro
Philipp, for what, you know, as you started kind of delving into this world that you really didn’t have any real basis for it’s not like you’re blind or you have a friend that’s blind, and it was somehow a connection for you. Did you do much study or or interest in Braille? And, you know, the tactile Braille formats? Did you learn any Braille? Or were you were did it pique your interest in that area?

Philipp Carlucci
Yeah. So yeah, obviously, it piqued my interest, I felt a bit bad in the first place. Because I felt like you’re not allowed to go to this in this topic. Because you don’t know anyone or yourself. You’re not blind. And it’s, I felt a bit bad. But there was actually a silly feeling because I think everybody should just, it should be open. And you should, you should start doing things in this field. Because I think often people are too afraid to go to a field that they don’t know anything about.

Philipp Carlucci
And particularly when it’s about accessibility, people are maybe afraid to do something wrong or say sign on. And I was I was very afraid of that. But yeah, nevertheless, I tried it. And yeah, obviously I did. Like I watched lots of documentaries. And I always had a fascination for musicians who like blind musicians, and generally I’m very much into hearing and I really love like hearing really so right. That was very interesting for me. And then I obviously I, for example, I blindfolded myself for like, I think, an entire day because I just wanted to, I wanted to feel I’ve wanted to feel how it’s like I wanted to see and maybe if I would get some inspiration from it, and obviously I didn’t leave the door because that’s very, very, very dangerous. So I just stayed in my place all day, but it was so difficult. And I mean, obviously, it’s not that difficult if you’re blind for a long time, because then you get used to everything. But for me it was, it was so difficult.

Dax Castro
Wow, that’s that’s a really great. You know, I think people you know, you can’t stretch. You don’t grow if you don’t stretch, right? And so I think people like you said, some people are afraid to even in the accessibility world Chad, wouldn’t you say? (yeah), people are afraid to remediate a PDF in a different way or think outside the box? Because they’re afraid to break some rule, or they’re afraid to do it, not do it. Right. And, you know, I think people just have to really put their thinking caps on and go, you know, we talked about this in a previous episode, Chad, what do I want the user to get out of this experience, right?

Chad Chelius
Yeah. Well, and and, you know, I always say, like, innovation comes from breaking the rules, you know, what I mean? Like, you know, that there’s, there’s a reason why these ideas come about, and, and it often comes from, you know, thinking outside of the box, or deviating from the standard practice and taking a different approach, you know, so, you know, I’m curious, Philipp, you know, you had no experience working, you know, with accessibility, you know, or, or anything like that. I mean, how did you, how did you test your, your project? And how did you get feedback on what you were doing?

Philipp Carlucci
Yeah, that’s a very good point. Because it’s, and that was thinking about that as well, while you were talking, like, for example, my website, I like this, particularly this, this website that you just mentioned, as well, where you could see the comic, I tried to make it as accessible as possible. But there’s only so much you can test yourself. I mean, nowadays, the technology is there, I think, in all the major browsers, there’s like accessibility tests, and so on.

Philipp Carlucci
But yeah, when I started working on the comic, I was just totally like, where do I get in touch with, I need to get in touch with blind readers because I need to test it. So I was just, I was just looking at these libraries for the blind and what I was imagining, because I was studying back then I was imagining, I just go to this library, and there’s all these blind people sitting like other people sit in the library and read books as well. That’s what I imagined.

Philipp Carlucci
So I wrote them and said, like, Hey, can I come by and then I came by, and it was just, it wasn’t a library at all. It was just this institutional building where they were just working with with blind readers. And they only worked with one. One guy, he was called Michael. And he was, yeah, I don’t know how old he was back then. But he was definitely much older than I was. And he was like proofreading for example. braille texts there. And he was very open to the idea. And he was just like, Yeah, sure. Let’s, let’s try it out. Test it with me. I’m happy to test it.

Philipp Carlucci
And I remember like, they let me use their printer as well. So I printed it there. And then I remember the day when I walked over to Michael, and said, like, hey, Michael, try this. So this is a comic it does just these these borders, and I’m trying to tell a story that took the story’s called life. Just go. And Michael. He just it’s so fascinating to see blind readers read because there’s so fast. Oh, yeah, there’s just a flying. This is so fast. And he was just like, I actually have a video recording of it. And he was just going over over this paper. And he was saying like, okay, there’s this one circle, and it’s getting closer. Oh, they’re getting much closer now. Oh, now they seem like they’re melting together. And, and he got the entire story. And I had goosebumps I still have I’m sorry. It was because for me, maybe it maybe it wasn’t the case. But I think it was the case. Like there was the first time a blind reader read a comic. And, and I remember going home that day, I was just on my bike.

And I was biking home. And I was just shouting out loud. Because I was like, “Yes, it’s working!” It’s so it was just so nice.

Philipp Carlucci

Chad Chelius
I can imagine [Philipp], I mean, you must have been so excited. And, and just fascinated as well. And you must have been proud of yourself. I mean, because you really achieved something that that that is very difficult to do.

Philipp Carlucci
Yeah, and I mean, I worked. It’s kind of hard because you work so long. I worked so long. I tested it with sighted readers, and I did all this printing and all these things. And it was his silo. I was just working and working on it. And I didn’t even know if it would work. So I was very relieved when it when it did work. But it was really cool as well to have Michael there because Michael was really supportive of the idea. He was like, yeah, try it. Because maybe if I met another person who was like, Nah, no interest, just just get to get out of here. Maybe I would have been like, okay, maybe this is not the right thing to do. So it’s the things have to come fall into place as well. Yeah. But I was very lucky to find find him and he was very supportive.

Dax Castro
Philipp, I think this is just a really great evolution story. Right. It is really the story of, you know, happenstance. You have these two random ideas but they brought you into a world that You had very little understanding of, but really wanted to create an to be a contributor in that world. Right? And, and watching listening to your story unfold here, and the path that you’ve taken to get that far. And and this was in 2013. Right? This is yes. Been a bit, right? Yeah. Have you did it? You know, this maybe put you on the spot a little bit? And it’s okay, whatever your answer is, but have you done any other work since this this project?

Philipp Carlucci
Yeah, it’s it’s the the most asked question, or whenever I talk about this, people asked this question. And now I haven’t, but recently, since I mean, I do get messages every now and then about about the comic, I was thinking like, maybe I should do like a long version, maybe like a longer version, just like, I’ll tell several stories. So yeah, I might, I might do something with it again. But no, I haven’t done until then.

Dax Castro
Another question would be, is this available? Can someone now get this if they’re a if there’s someone who wants this tactile version? Is there a way for them to to order or get this from you?

Philipp Carlucci
Currently, unfortunately, not anymore. So I when I used the printer, I printed a few copies. And I, I was back when I did it, I was again in like a very different state of mind. I was very anti capitalistic. And I didn’t want to I didn’t want to, yeah, I didn’t want to print some. I didn’t want to, like, I didn’t want to put something into the world really, like I was very, it was a weird phase. I was very like, okay, sustainability driven, and so on and so forth. So I never, I never, like mass produced them. That’s the thing. I never mass produced them. So I did print a few copies and glued them together myself. Because it’s like this few pages. And I made this leporello version. I don’t know how to how to say that in English at all.

Dax Castro
I probably z-fold probably expanded. Yeah. I’m folding version, right.

Philipp Carlucci
Yeah. And I never, I never printed enough copies. I did have a few. And I yeah, there was a lot of people who wanted one. And I even let I asked people to just name their price. They could name whatever price they wanted, and send it to them. And whenever there was a library or a school for blind readers reaching out, I was giving it away for free.

Dax Castro
Let me ask you another question. And, you know, I’m My head is just my gears are turning Chad, I I’m, I’m I was thinking, you know, is there? Is there a way to print more if our listeners were interested in getting I mean, if we were to print, I don’t know, 1000 of these? If If we were to come up with a financial way to make that happen? Is that a possibility? Or is it just the the the contacts you have and all of that to get this printed again, are gone?

Philipp Carlucci
No, I think the main issue is and maybe that changed as well is this printer, like I was printing on a4, I was printing three pages of A4. And then I had to glue them together and there was just too much work. But I think you could totally mass produce it. And you could totally, like make an even nicer, like tactile version of it with like proper properly embossed paper instead of using this printer. You could have like very nice embossing of paper. That’s totally possible. And actually, it’s Yeah, it’s something I would I would Yeah, I’m I’m considering or looking into as well. Yeah,

Dax Castro
Well, sure. Well, if you need some help with that, or if you’re you seriously want to try to get this printed, do a second printing of it. reach back out to us after the show and and let us know maybe our listeners want to help contribute or you know, maybe there’s someone out there who can can help facilitate getting this getting this reprinted. I think it’s hugely valuable. if for no other reason than it opened the opens the world up whether you’re cited or not, to a different format that allows for an expansion of what you would consider as art, right.

Philipp Carlucci
Yeah, I think as well like, while I was doing it, and as well like documenting it on on my website, and taking like really nice pictures of it. I really tried to to make like accessibility look very, like good or designing or like, just very beautiful in a way and I wanted to make like my ideal goal would be to inspire like other designers to think more about accessibility and as well think like that accessibility can actually look really interesting and really good. And for example, like I really like this, like tactile things and as well on devices that are that are used in your in your household or whatever and you sometimes have these Braille markings on them or just like little I think they look very nice actually. They can feel very nice and I think that’s just should be something like people are inspired by ideally.

Chad Chelius
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you know, you know, Braille I was I had the, the, the fortune of working with a group from Lighthouse for the Blind out in Seattle. And, you know, they also had a Braille printer out there. And they were kind enough that I think they printed out my name or something like that in Braille. And, and it’s, uh, you know, my background is in printing. So I always have had a love for tactile, you know, but yeah, I love the smell of the ink. Like when I get something, it’s nicely printed. I smell it and my wife looks at me like I have two heads, you know, but, um, you know, smelling the printing ink and feeling the the matte or the glossy, you know, of that field? Yeah, there’s

Dax Castro
Nothing better than a premium satin finish on a paper.

Chad Chelius
Oh yeah. Or even in boss. Yeah right? So now we’re getting a little bit, you know, to me that is similar to Braille. I mean, Braille is really just, you know, the, the embossed nature of it. So yeah, I, I really respect what you’ve done, Philipp. And, and I’m fascinated by it. I think I’m gonna, I think I’m gonna spend a little bit of time on your website. Today, just just kind of perusing everything. It’s really great. What we didn’t ask you Philipp, what do you do for a living?

Philipp Carlucci
Interaction design? So I studied interaction design. So what I do is a freelance interaction designer, I do apps and websites, and I do the conceptual work and making it work for the user, like from a conceptual standpoint and usability standpoint. Sure.

Chad Chelius
And so, as part of that, does accessibility ever come into play? Like it? Do you do actually do any work in the accessibility space?

Philipp Carlucci
Yeah, so we’ve we tried to follow the best accessibility rules. And I think like working for bigger companies, it’s a must, basically to these triple A rules. And two, yeah, that’s what we do, basically, but it’s not doing it’s obviously just a little, little tiny thing. And it’s not the main thing. And sure, unfortunately, you sometimes you work with designers who, for example, when it’s about being like when it’s about color blindness, for example, who are really like annoyed, and they’re like, oh, gosh, now I have to I can’t use this nice, like gray or whatever. Right. But that’s really a bad that, what is

Dax Castro
It’s outlook, it’s a bad outlook. You know, to me, color blindness is a passion point of mine. And, you know, I teach when I’m teaching accessibility, I always include a little lesson on color blindness. And, you know, invariably, you get that, Oh, well, if I have to make this colorblind compliant, that I can only use these colors or just has to be drab and boring. Like, no, not really, there’s millions of colors you can use. It’s about the combinations of the colors that you use, you know, and then like, well, this is just too hard. No, you just have to think about it a little bit. And there are plenty of colors. Right? That just you know, you just have to check yourself. And I find it very interesting. When people throw that up as a barrier. They’re just like, this is just ridiculous. I don’t know why I have to, you know, for a few blind people, or a few colorblind people, I’ve got to do this and you’re like, Wow, that’s so so sad.

Chad Chelius
Well, and Dax, you had mentioned, I think it was in our previous podcast about the Microsoft product. (Oh, yeah.) That, that that allows you and I downloaded it after that episode, and was using it and what is it called?

Dax Castro
Microsoft Colors Simulations, and it’s…

Chad Chelius
Color Simulations and, and it brings up a window and you can drag it over your design on screen. And it simulates the colorblind appearance. Right. And and you were absolutely right, Dax. I mean, I took it over just a random document. And like, everything melded together, it was just all gray. And I’m like, Oh, my gosh, you know, I mean, this is, this is really, you know, something that that we need to keep. Keep in mind,

Dax Castro
You know, I have this app on my phone too, because there’s nothing more powerful than being able to pull. It’s a different app, Sim Daltonism. And there’s nothing better than being able to pull your phone out in a meeting on a printed piece and go, because I can identify what’s a colorblind barrier almost, you know, immediately without any app. But to show someone else whip out the phone and be like, no, look at this is how blind a colorblind person was like, “Whoa,” it’s very powerful, right? Yeah. Hey, yeah. Hey, Chad, we have come to that point in our show, where we’re our “Who’s on Twitter?” Right? So Who’s on Twitter’s is uh, I don’t want to miss it this week. We didn’t get one last week. So

Chad Chelius
Yeah, we missed it last week, but who is on Twitter Dax,

Dax Castro
So who is on Twitter is Able Gamers So it’s @AbleGamers, and they are they their profile says we help children, adults and veterans with physical and cognitive disabilities to have fun and play video games. And so their whole Twitter profile is all about playing video games. And they you know, they even have something on here. Our next certified accessible player experience practitioner training is scheduled for July 29. So they’re teaching people how to host able, able gamer events, right? So it’s kind of like an accessibility trainer, but for video games, so you can help these people who probably have never thought they could play a video game, or maybe there’s assistive technology and different mouse pads or, you know, stop pads or modified input devices. So being an educated teacher and being able to host that kind of event is pretty cool. But yeah,

Chad Chelius
Yeah, Dax. And if, if you go to their website, which is http://www.ablegamers.org. You know, they are obviously a nonprofit, but on their website, you can get help. So there’s help available for gamers that need help gaming, but there’s also help for developers to help them make their game more accessible. Right. So I mean, that they’re, they’re coming at this this from from multiple different angles, and and their website. Yeah, it has even even more great information. And that there’s a bunch of examples of their work as well. So definitely check out www.ablegamers.org.

Dax Castro
Awesome, awesome. Philipp, it has been great having you on our podcast, we really appreciate your, you know, your exploration into this other world of tactile comics. You know, it Chad and I, we had talked about comics for the blind, where people are writing alt text for all the different images and coming up with descriptions and all of that, but this is totally not at any of what we were thinking about at all.

Chad Chelius
No, not at all. I mean, this is, yeah, I had a preconceived notion of what we were going to be talking about. And this is completely different, but in a great way, in a fantastic way. And yeah, Philipp, we can’t thank you enough for taking the time to join us on today’s podcast.

Philipp Carlucci
Well, thank you so much for having me. And thank you for the kind words, yeah.

Dax Castro
Philipp, keep keep us in mind, you know, reach back out to us. If you do another project like this, we’d love to help you find testing partners, we are we have deep connections into the accessibility world and have a Lighthouse for the Blind and several other connections where this project really could go much further and I think impact a lot more people. If you’re interested in that, because, you know, I’m sure after this podcast episode airs, we’re gonna get some feedback that’s gonna be, you know, where can I get this? How can I get more? What for sure, you know, that kind of thing. So,

Philipp Carlucci
Yeah, cool. Yeah, sure. I will do so. Thank you so much for the offer.

Dax Castro
Awesome. Well, Chad, we are at the end of another podcast. It is these things just fly by. I mean, I just, I could sit here and talk with Well, you know, me, I could sit and talk all day long, right?

Chad Chelius
You can. You definitely can.

Dax Castro
You know, but, but this is such an interesting topic. So

Chad Chelius
It really is. Yeah, yep. So once again, I want to thank AbleDocs for being our sponsor on today’s podcast. Once again, AbleDocs, are the makers of axesWord, axesPDF, as well as document remediation services. So again, thanks for your support on our podcast. My name is Chad, Chelius…

Dax Castro
and my name is Dax Castro. And together we unravel accessibility for you.

Chad Chelius
Thanks, guys.

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