Chad Chelius and Dax Castro during an Accessibility Podcast with the Chax Chat Logo between them.

Mapping custom styles in MS Word and Adobe InDesign

Accessibility Podcast Topic Links

Accessibility Podcast Transcript

Dax Castro
Welcome to another episode of Chax Chat. Join Chad Chelius and me Dax Castro, where each week we wax poetic about document accessibility topics, tips, and the struggle of remediation and compliance. So sit back, grab your favorite mug of whatever, and let’s get started.

Chad Chelius
Welcome, everyone. Today’s podcast is sponsored by the North Idaho College and their upcoming paved the way to Global Accessibility Awareness Day or PWGAD, which is going to be held in Coeur d’Alene Idaho. PWGAD is on April 19, 2023. And more information could be found at nic.edu/PWGAD. So we want to thank them for being our sponsor on today’s podcast. My name is Chad Chelius. I’m an Adobe Certified Instructor, as well as director of training solutions and principal at Chax Training and Consulting.

Should the IAAP tests be hard?

 Dax Castro 
And my name is
Dax Castro, I’m Director of Media Productions here at Chax Training and Consulting. And also Chad and I are certified as accessible document specialists by the IAAP. Matter of fact, Chad, interestingly enough, are a friend of ours, Karl Groves just posted a LinkedIn article about the certification and test for IAAP, did you happen to see that article? I did not. It is about should the test be hard. And he actually goes on to talk about the idea that they require three to five years of experience that you have to submit showing you a proof that you have three to five years of experience before taking the test. And so there’s a lot of people that have mixed opinions about that, and why do I have to prove and you know, Karl goes on to write a very great article about the idea that it should be hard, and you should have to prove and they’re not the only ones that require, you know, proof that you actually know your stuff beyond being able to take a test well, because you know, the whole idea of these documents, specialist tests or the web accessibility specialist test, is to prove to validate that you actually have the actual job skills to do the job, the idea that the test, it needs to be more than just the test, I think is super important, don’t you think?

 Chad Chelius 
I do? I do. I mean, you know, in my career, I mean, there’s been a lot of, you know, I have a lot of certifications. And, you know, I kind of go back to my, you know, my days of teaching the Adobe products. And people used to always come up and ask me, like, how do you study for the test? And they didn’t really like my answer, because I would tell him I didn’t. I didn’t study for those tests, because I use the product every day. I mean, don’t get me wrong. I mean, I would often like look at the, you know, they would also give you like a document and had a couple of test questions on it or whatever. But you know, I think fundamentally, like, there’s people I think you just kind of, you know, touted yourself as somebody who was pretty good at taking tests. Right, right. Like you, you have a kind of a knack for it. Right. There’s, and I know, there’s methodology behind that and everything like that. But you know, I think fundamentally, I mean, you know, passing a test is good. But once you pass the test, you actually have to be able to back it up. Do you know what I’m saying? Yeah. And so fundamentally, I mean, you need to be able to do it, you need to be able to actually do it. So not that I I’m, you know, tearing down studying for a test. I’m not saying that at all. But I also think you have to remember that once you pass that test, you actually need to be able to do the work. Right. And some of that comes with experience, right? And I think that’s part of the reason why WAP wants you to have that experience up front.

 Dax Castro 
So it was just really great. It was a good article, you know, there are some people out there like, Well, why does IAAP get to be the ones who make that determination? And my answer to you is our experience taking, creating the questions for that test? Was not like everybody just submitted an Excel file. And we just sat around and go, Oh, these sound like good questions and make it high. Right. It was an arduous process, heavily vetted by some of the best minds in document accessibility. And, you know, I couldn’t imagine just kind of throwing it together. We spent weeks going over those questions.

 Chad Chelius 
Oh, yeah. And there was some pretty heavy debate among us, quote, unquote experts, right? I mean, I prefer not to call myself an expert, because I’m always learning something new. I just I don’t really like the term. But, you know, there’s a group of us, you know, collectively. And, and I will say like We butted heads, right? Like, we each felt strongly about certain things. And, and there were there were times where we would, we would argue a point. And we would kind of explain our side of the equation, and sometimes we’d win. And sometimes we’d lose, right?

 Dax Castro 
You know, but it’s all backed by facts, right? Oh, of course, of course, the whole point is, is that all goes back to here’s some documentation that backs up why we believe a certain thing or not, right. And so, you know, that’s the body of knowledge helps you get there helps you study, it’s definitely not all you need to know, to be proficient at the job. It’s like how you and I talk about the tools, the accessibility tools, using common look or access PDF, or you know, Equinox, any of the Foxit, you know, any tool, you have to be able to understand what’s going on behind the scenes. Because when the tool doesn’t work, right, or the document doesn’t behave well. And you have to go in and manually fix it, you have to know, first of all, you have to know what’s wrong, because sometimes you’ll pass a checker even though it’s wrong. Other times, other times, it’ll be wrong, but it won’t give you a solution. Or it will and it’ll be the wrong solution. And you create more errors. I mean, I don’t know how many times that’s happened. So, you know, it’s, it’s definitely you have to go back and make sure you have a good solid foundation, understanding the principles of accessibility, we say it almost every time we talk subject,

 Chad Chelius 
Yeah. And, you know, I’ve had a lot of people, you know, I mean, we do a lot of training stacks, you know, and, and I’ve had people walk up to me afterwards, and they’re, like, you know, oh, my gosh, how am I supposed to remember all of this? And I say, Listen, you don’t have to remember it all now. Right. But as you do the work, as you see more and more documents, and you, you see different scenarios, you’re going to build your knowledge. And you’re going to start to, you know, you and I can look at a document, and I can look at the tag structure, without even really seeing the document yet, right, which is a really weird thing. But matrix, there it is, it’s a little bit of an oddity, but I can look the tag structure without even seeing the page, I can tell if it’s wrong or not. Yep, you know, and, you know, that it just comes with doing it, you know, with experience. So, yeah, be that as it may, you know, but just know, everybody that, you know, I know, accessibility can be a little bit daunting, especially to the beginner, but just give it time, put the time in, work on as many documents as you can. And the more experience you get, the better you’re going to get.

CSUN Assistive Technology Recap

 Dax Castro 
Yeah, well, you know, the other thing we want to talk about Chad was, you know, this, somebody came up with a Facebook group. And if you are new listener, well, you know, we probably have quite a few new listeners to the podcast, because we just came back from CSUN, the CSUN, assistive technology conference, and we met so many amazing people, I think we might even just do a show chat later on, just about some of the contacts we made at CSUN. And the different things that we learned, I think that would be a great, a great podcast, what do you think?

 Chad Chelius 
Absolutely, absolutely. Between, you know, the, the new people we ran into friends that we know, we made a lot of great peer connections, I would say, and when we made a lot of good connections, you know, certainly on the business side of the equation, as well, you know, we’re, fundamentally we’re there to help people, we’re there to help people overcome the challenges of accessibility. And, and I think we made a lot of really good contacts. And we, we, we had a lot of interest but other people. You know, we had a booth there this year. Yes, it was wait, which was really, really cool. And we had an awesome location. I mean, I was I was thrilled with our location. And, yeah, it was just a great conference. But the sessions, the exhibit, the after the end of the day festivities, I mean, it’s just a really great conference. And Kim Baldwin was posting to everybody to talk to your boss now and get approval for next year. He like he’s like, you know, get you know, get it in early, right. Cuz it really is a great conference to go to.

Do all links need alt-text?

 Dax Castro 
Well, we’ll definitely talk about that on a on another episode. So, so anyway, to those of you who are New to the podcast, we have a Facebook group called PDF Accessibility, you can find us on Facebook, just search, “PDF Accessibility”, and it will come right up. But somebody was asking about hyperlinks needing alt text and do IBOR links always need alt text? Is it mandatory that you that that every hyperlink has to have alt text? And it was interesting, because one of the comments that was posted was, yes, every, every image, every link has to have alt text. And I paused and I asked, you know, well, success criteria, the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, two, point 4.4. Link purpose says that the purpose of each link can be determined from the link text alone, or from the link text together with its programmatically determined link context, except where the purpose of the link would be ambiguous to users in general. Which basically means I if I can’t tell what the URL is, or where it’s supposed to take me or what’s going on, then yeah, there should be some alt text. But if it has that context, then no, I don’t need the extralt text. And, and the other person on the on the board, their comment was No, no, it’s non text content, the actual URL, the annotation, the underlying annotation, is, in fact, an object. It’s a non text object. And I don’t know, I disagree. Chad, what do you think?

 Chad Chelius 
Yeah, I mean, I agree that you disagree. And I’ll tell you why. Because, again, anybody who’s worked on a document, right, knows that a hyperlink cannot exist on its own. Right? You can’t have a hyperlink, just floating in no man’s land, because you’re going to get an error on markdown notation, right? A link needs to be attached to something. And the way that it does that, of course, is that you have a link tag, and then whatever it’s attached to the content is a position within that link tag. And it certainly could be text, it could also be a figure for that. Right? Right. I mean, can be either or so if you think of a link as non text content. I mean, I don’t know that I would disagree with that assumption. Fundamentally, however, the fact that that link can’t live on its own, kind of debunks that, you know, that theory, if you will,

 Dax Castro 
I think of it like a shoe, right? There’s an insult, you have an insert in your shoe. You would never and can never just wear the insert, you have to have the shoe in order to wear the insert. It doesn’t exist without the other. I mean, yes, it’s an object. Yes, you can go by and insert, but you can’t just walk around with an insert on the bottom of your foot unless you like super glued it on there, or taped it to your foot or did something weird, right. I mean, you know,

 Chad Chelius 
That is the craziest analogy I’ve ever heard. But I get it. And you’re right. You’re absolutely right. Yeah. I, you know, yeah, I would agree with you. So now. And again, right. I mean, so here’s the thing, too, right. Yeah. You mentioned what CAGs success criterion. PDF/UA says, Every hyperlink needs alt text. Now, again, I feel like that is a brute force effort. Right? I feel like it’s a very brute force approach to the problem. Because I feel like over time, we all have gotten very good at ensuring that our hyperlinks contain meaningful content. Right, right. Again, in the days of click here, or download here, or, you know, go here, okay, we could argue that alt text is valuable in those scenarios. But when your link contains meaningful text, adding alt text, in my opinion, is redundant.

 Dax Castro 
Well, it’s not even redundant chat it replaces. It’s not like it’s going to say whatever you have on the page, and then the alt text, it’s literally going to One to One replace the text that’s on the page. It says 2024 earnings report. In the text, it says download the 2024 earnings report. And you put alt text on that, that says 26 meg PDF on the company website, you know, on on BMWs company website. It’s going to just say that it’s not going to say download the earnings report. The visual person will get a different experience, though. Hear the old text but see the text. But for a blind user, a person who has who doesn’t have the benefit of both senses is going to only get the alt text. That’s all they’re going to hear. And that’s problematic.

 Chad Chelius 
And that’s a really good point, Dax especially when our, our approach to accessibility is equal access for all right, and so you just kind of Yeah, you’re right, you’re reminded me about that, right? That the fact that the alt text replaces the text, I’m not going to say actual text, because I don’t want to confuse things. But you know, the alt text replaces the text that that is applied to the link

 Dax Castro 
Right. The on-page visual description of the thing, you know, it gets replaced. The other thing is that the preflight fix up, right, check the preflight, fix up what we complain about it and say, well, it doesn’t really do anything, because when you run it, all it does is regurgitate whatever was the on-page link, as the alt text. And like you said, then it’s basically being redundant, what they’re what are we doing it for if we’re just regurgitating what’s there?

 Chad Chelius 
Well, we’re doing it simply to satisfy the PDF/UA requirement. That was really why we’re doing you know, I mean, we’re not saying they’re frustrating, we’re doing it to get the green checkmark, you know. And I mean, that’s really hard, because we all want to provide our client with a clean report. Right, right. We you know, you, you can’t hand a client a report that has a red X over it, and say, Oh, just ignore that. Right. It’s good. Right? No client, you know, that the clients not going to understand. So it’s a what I call it a sticky wicket.

Do I need a Document tag?

 Dax Castro 
Well, you know, you talk about satisfying the requirements. Here’s the flip side of that, right. So I don’t want to just poopoo PDF/UA. Here’s, here’s a where one where I defend PDF/UA, the document tag, that all PDF should start with a document tag, and someone asked in the Facebook group the other day, how do I convince my boss that I’m supposed to spend the time to make this document tack? And I said, I said, Well, it’s like trying to convince someone you should start a sentence with a capital letter? Because, I mean, how do you explain that? You just should, it’s proper grammar. It’s the way it’s supposed to be?

 Chad Chelius 
Well, and I’m going to get nerdy on you here, because the tag structure is very reminiscent of a markup language. Right, right. And every markup language, whether it be XML, or HTML, or SGML, has a root tag, right? It has one tag that rules them all, so to speak, one tag that contains all other tags. And that’s exactly what the document tag is serving as well. It’s one main tag that contains all the other tags without that everything is just chaos, right? It is everything is there’s no one parent element there all parent elements, right within the Tags Tree. Well, I

 Dax Castro 
Kind of think of it like if you drove in the drive thru, I’m full of analogies.

 Chad Chelius 
I know, I know.

 Dax Castro 
You go to McDonald’s, you pull up to the window, and they hand you your shake, then they hand you the little baggie of fries. And then they hand you your sandwich. And then they hand you your cookie and you know, your whatever. And you know all of it separately. Yes. Like you, you can grab them all separately. Can you still eat your lunch? Absolutely. Do you still know that you’re going through a drive thru? Yes. But it’s not the way you do it. You put things in a bag and you hand them the whole entire bag, and it’s not efficient. It’s not efficient? Well, the, you know, the argument is, well, if it works, if it doesn’t affect how the PDFs read by a screen reader, then why does it matter? You’re spending you’re wasting extra time? Well, I guess I get that, but you never know. Oh, you, you know, it may be a time where folios inside a PDF will actually work portfolios where you can put together multiple documents in one PDF and it’d be accessible. You’re currently it’s not. But let’s just say at some time in the future, we’re able to do that. Well, the way that the screen reader would be able to tell one document from another the beginning of one document and the end of another would be that document tag. Right and without it, it’s harder to you know, it would be impossible, I guess, to tell the difference between when one document started and another one and ended.

 Chad Chelius 
Yeah. No, I totally agree with you. And so it’s, you know, I get I get people questioning it, right. I mean, I absolutely get people questioning it. But as somebody who has done a lot of work with markup languages, it makes complete sense to me that, you know, we have one container tag, the document tag, right? That that rules them all, or that contains all the other tags. So

 Dax Castro 
absolutely agree.

Microsoft Edge and Adobe Acrobat

 Chad Chelius 
So, Dax, I wanted to bring something up. And we didn’t talk about this before we, you know, started today, but I remembered something that I wanted to bring up, and that is that the Microsoft Edge web browser has decided to replace their internal PDF renderer with Adobe Acrobat. Oh, okay. And I don’t have much that I can say about it. I just wanted to mention it, because it, it definitely piqued my interest, right. Because in a previous podcast, we talked about the challenge of it on a lot of people’s computers, the default viewer for PDF files is the web browser. Right? And as we talked about assistive technology is useless, right? Because it can’t, it can’t get to the tag structure of the of that PDF file within a browser. Sure. I’m really, really curious, with Adobe being the PDF renderer. If that could change in this scenario?

Microsoft Accessibility Assistant

 Dax Castro 
Yeah, well, you know, on the on the topic of the Microsoft, you know, genre, they just, you know, have a new tool now, the Microsoft accessibility assistant, yeah, if you’re using Word and you go in, and you color one of your headings, a light green, this little warning is going to pop up and say, Hey, you just use a color that might not be accessible to everyone, and not just tell you that you did it wrong. But say, Hey, here’s three other colors that you could use, that would be a better fit, that are close to the color you’re using. And I thought that’s an amazing leap forward for Microsoft.

 Chad Chelius 
I think it’s I think it’s a simple thing. But I think it’s genius, right? Because, again, if you’re a designer, right, you’re going to put a lot of thought into the color you’re creating, you know, so on and so forth. But for the average user who’s just creating documents and wants a colored heading, I think this a brilliant innovation, because it’s going to notify them. And if somebody knows even a tiny little bit about accessibility, they’re going to be like, Oh, well, let me make sure that this does meet minimum color contrast to ensure that this accessible for more users. And I think it’s great. I think it’s really cool.

How to create accessible Heading styles in Microsoft Word

 Dax Castro 
Yeah. Now if they could just get rid of the automatically generate alt text for me, that would be awesome. Well, you know, Chad, I guess today is a Microsoft day, let’s talk about so Styles in Word, right? People use, you know, we always preach using styles as the best way to make your document more accessible. One of the things people often struggle with is the title, style. Right? And, and the idea that they use the title, but it just exports to a paragraph tag. And you and I were talking about we always teach how important it is to use Styles inside Microsoft Word, right? But how do you create a new style that also maps to a specific heading in Word so that when you export it, maybe you want to make your own version of the H2 or you need another H3 In addition to the one that you that that word provides for you because of the way your document structure is and how you want to style some of the text. So how do we go about do creating custom styles that actually map to known heading level?

 Chad Chelius 
So yeah, I mean, the so what I always tell people like the default heading styles in word right heading one through heading six, automatically maps to the appropriate tag, right? So if you use heading one, it’ll map to an H1 use heading six it’ll map to an h6 but a lot of people like to create their own styles right and I certainly am one of them, right? I typically do. main headings sub headings sub sub head like I love my custom style names. But when you do that, the default property is that all of them are going to map to a P tag. So word does give you the ability to control what tag is going to get applied to that style when it’s output to PDF. Sure. And the way that you do that, at the bottom of the styles. So in Word, you know, in your ribbon, you have what I think it’s called the quick styles menu, where you in your ribbon, you can kind of see all of your styles. But in the lower right corner of that section is a tiny little icon, that’s like a write down arrow, like a right angled down arrow. And if you click on that, then you could see the styles panel as a regular panel in Word. And I love this panel, it’s so much easier, in my opinion to work with than the quick styles. And so if you create a custom style, and you want to map it to a particular tag, what you could do is if you go to the right of the name of the style, you’re going to see a little down arrow. And if you click on it, and you choose Modify, that will open up the Modify Style dialog box, right. And within that dialog box, if you click on the Format button in the lower left corner, and then choose paragraph, it will open up your paragraph properties. And within that dialog is a field called outline level. And the default value is going to say body text, which basically equals a P tag.

 Dax Castro 
It’ll be so nice if they if they just label this heading level, right eye level. Yeah, it’s a header yet, but I get it.

 Chad Chelius 
Absolutely, it really means heading level. And so within that drop down menu, you have body text, and then you have level one through level nine, although really only level one through level six applies to what we’re talking about. But if you choose level one, now that style is going to map to an h one when you generate your PDF file. So that is the kind of the magic behind styles, and how to get them to output to the correct tag in the PDF file.

 Dax Castro 
Right. And, and to take this a step further. We know in the default styles, we have one through six, but we also heading level one through six. But we also have the Title Style, right. And that title, unfortunately, you would think would map to heading level one or something else, it just maps to a P tag. It’s just not to body text. So you can actually use that same principle, go over to your title style, or you can actually just right click on the title style in the ribbon, and go to modify, right, and then click on format and then paragraph. And then right now you can see it says body text. And you just change that to level one. And then you’ll be able to then the title will come out as a heading level one because you can have multiple styles that map to the same heading level. But you just want to make sure you use them responsibly and keep things in order. Right.

 Chad Chelius 
Right. Right. And we talked about this in previous podcasts, right? I mean, we actually talked about the title tag right now and where…

 Dax Castro 
…we don’t want to go, Well, let’s not go down that rabbit hole to dive down that today.

 Chad Chelius 
But typically, you know, I mean, in a lot of documents, you will have like a title style, right? And, you know, oftentimes you want that style to map to an H1, and then it’s okay. If your main heading style also maps to an H1 Not a problem. It’s not a not a violation of any standard.

 Dax Castro 
We’re not going down that road and here we are going down that road.

Creating accessible Heading styles in Adobe InDesign

 Chad Chelius 
Well, and then while we’re talking about styles, right, so let’s talk about styles in Adobe InDesign. Sure, right. Now Adobe InDesign, unlike word InDesign does not give you any default styles, with the exception of a style called Basic paragraph, right? And basic paragraph is just like generic text, right. And so when we create styles InDesign, we really have complete control. We have full control, name it whatever you want, and sometimes that can get us into trouble, right? Because by being able to name it whatever you want, sometimes people get a little too creative with their naming conventions, definitely. And they’ll want to use special characters in their style name. And a special character is basically anything other than a letter or a number,

 Dax Castro 
Right? So you can use dashes and underscores. Yeah, but you cannot use a plus symbol. I think a colon maybe a colons, okay, but a paragraph symbol, and a symbol

 Chad Chelius 
is not good. Symbols are not good. Enough sign. Sign is not good. apostrophe is

 Dax Castro 
another one that isn’t good, right? Yeah. And so, so really, guys, would you make your styles just underscore or dash if you need to put beyond that, just really try to keep it simple, because the more complex you make it, the more chances you have to make them be wrong. And I will tell you, Adobe, if you go to Adobe’s, you know, stock that adobe.com And you go download an InDesign template, a lot of them are machine generated. So your styles that you get will have some of these crazy long style names that are super long, or have special characters in them, because they’ve just programmatically somehow assigned it.

 Chad Chelius 
Yeah. And so the problem, right, if you’re, if you’re like, well, what’s the big deal? Like, why can’t I use unique characters? Well, when you make a PDF out of well out of word or InDesign, I don’t think PowerPoint does the roadmap but InDesign in Word creates a roadmap. And what a roadmap is, is that the PDF remembers the name of your style, but then it maps it to a standard tag, right? So you know, typically, in my document, I have main heading, and that maps to an H1. And if I go into the roadmap of my PDF, there’s going to be an entry that literally says main heading. And then there’s like a space and then it says like slash H1. Right? And that means that that what was the main heading style is now mapping to an H1 tag. Well, if your style contains a unique character, it breaks the roadmap, right? The Roadmap does not understand that character, and effectively ignores it right back and one of the one of the giveaways like one of the ways you can tell there’s a problem is if you look in your Tags Tree in your PDF, and all your tags are p H1, H3, and then you see a tag name called pound main heading. Yeah, or you know, something crazy like that, right? Yeah, that is a dead giveaway that your roadmap is broken, because you have a style that has a unique character. So it’s, it’s, you know, and again, like, I know, people are probably thinking, like, how the heck does he know this? Because it happened to me, right. That’s how I know and, and it was a it was a when I remember when it happened. It was a really interesting discovery. You know, because when I looked at it, I’m like, Oh, wow. And right away, I noticed like the pound sign or the @ symbol,  I forget what it was. But right away, I’m like, huh, I feel like that could be a problem. Right. And so I went back to InDesign renamed my style re exported, and everything was fine. Um, so yeah.

 Dax Castro 
Yeah, no, awesome. Well, there’s been a great episode Chad, you know, we talked a lot about this the styles episode, right? Yeah. In the analogies Episode, Rise, you know, I am never one for a lot. I’ve never a loss of words. For an analogy is my life. It is my superpower, one of my ADHD superpowers.

 Chad Chelius 
I love it. I love it.

 Dax Castro 
So the next place they can catch us is going to be in Austin, Texas, May 9 through the 12. And we’re going to be there for the John Slatin AccessU Conference. And we’re going to be doing another pre conference lab chat. This last one was so well received the one we did it at CSUN. In fact, we had three blind people in our class, doing document testing with NVDA, which I got to tell you, it was a little intimidating for me because these are native screen reader users. And if you say the wrong thing, they’re going to call you on it. Right?

 Chad Chelius 
Absolutely. But it was so cool, right? I mean, it was so cool having them in there and getting their insight, right. Yeah. I also did a session Dax not to segue here. But I did a session on fillable PDF forms, right. And I had a blind user in that session. And he gave me some really good insight, right. I mean, as I’m explaining to the audience, like this how assistive technology, you know, reads the form. You know, I had created like, a creative little thing at the bottom with radio buttons. And the question was, where in the room? Would you like to sit? And they could choose front left front, middle front, right, you know, and, and the gentleman in the front, who, who is a native at user had some really good insight, and just, you know, how he feels about, you know, forms and the process of reading them. So, yeah, I agree in our in our env document testing with NVDA session, having those native users in there was really great, I think, not just for us, but for everybody in the class.

 Dax Castro 
Absolutely. So definitely come out and see us. In Austin. It’s going to be May 9 through the 12th. And it’s actually going to be both virtual and in person at St. Edward’s campus in Austin, Texas. So if you want to join, feel free to go ahead and head over to knobility.org. And you can find access to the 2023 John Slayton access you there. And we would love to see you we are you and I are both going to be there and it should be a big good time.

 Chad Chelius 
All right, everybody. Well, thank you all for tuning in this week. I hope you enjoyed it and found our content interesting. Once again, we want to thank the North Idaho College and the upcoming pave the way to Global Accessibility Awareness Day for sponsoring our podcast this week. My name is
 Chad Chelius.

 Dax Castro 
And my name is
 Dax Castro where each week we unravel accessibility for you.

 Chad Chelius 
Thanks, guys.